After debate, mixed reaction to McCain and a tilt toward Obama’s policies
Dante Chinni
Posted: 10.16.2008 / 7:47 AM PDT
After three presidential debates and one vice presidential meeting, the noise you may have heard Wednesday night at about 10:30 p.m. was a big exhale from across Patchwork Nation. For many voters, the reaction was one of relief that the debates are over.
“I’m certainly glad this is the last debate because I’m so sick of these guys it isn’t even funny,” wrote James Rickman, a Patchwork Nation correspondent in Los Alamos, N.M. – our wealthy “Monied ’Burb.”
Yet the third presidential debate brought some of the fireworks that everyone wanted and probably the most open exchanges between Sens. John McCain and Barack Obama.
Senator McCain brought a pugilistic attitude to the night and took nearly every opportunity to hit at Senator Obama. Most of our correspondents, though, in responses similar to the CNN and CBS flash polls taken after the debate, thought Obama “won.”
McCain turned questions about a number of topics into questions about the Illinois senator. He brought up everything from William Ayers, a Vietnam War-era radical, to comments by Rep. John Lewis (D) of Georgia about McCain’s own rally crowds. He relentlessly brought up “Joe the plumber” – a man Obama apparently met on the campaign trail who he says will be burned by Obama’s policies.
But the responses to McCain’s approach were mixed.
Down in Clermont, Fla. (our aging “Emptying Nest” community), Ann Dupee, a retiree, wrote, “For the first time he came out feisty. Too bad he hasn’t been showing emotion all these months.”
And in Baton Rouge, La. (our heavily African-American “Minority Central” community), Ed Pratt, a media-relations representative for Southern University, wrote that he didn’t think McCain won but that he “was stronger tonight than at the other debates.” Mr. Pratt added, “He was aggressive and tough.”
But another correspondent in Clermont, who asked not to be named due to local sensitivities, was less taken with McCain’s approach. “Senator McCain was often agitated and seemed at times that he was coming unglued,” he wrote.
Out in Lincoln City, Ore. (our lower-income “Service Worker Center”), Patchwork Nation blogger Kip Ward, owner of the local Historic Anchor Inn, wrote that McCain’s approach turned people off. He watched the debate with a half-dozen people at the hotel.
“All felt Obama won hands down,” he wrote in an e-mail. “It doesn’t really matter what either said. Most people will forget most of that by tomorrow. What matters again is that Barack looked cool, and presidential. McCain’s head looked like it was going to pop, his eyes were bulging, and his face was contorting.”
Beyond the theatrics and tone, the back-and-forth about who was associating with whom and why made the debate feel more backward-looking than the others. Correspondents in our communities have not dealt much with such topics in our regular correspondence with them.
But on Wednesday night, the one Patchwork Nation community that did comment about the past – especially Obama’s past – was Nixa, Mo., our socially conservative “Evangelical Epicenter.” There, Kristi Bohannon, owner of a local Sonic fast-food franchise who is a supporter of President Bush, said she and her family decided they were voting for McCain.
“After both debates, we all agreed that Obama has too many associations with individuals of questionable motives and character, and McCain’s life shows he has dedicated his life to serving the USA,” Ms. Bohannon wrote. “None of us agree or disagree with everything either of them said. The choice we make will come down to character of the individual.”
For Bohannon, and probably many others in “Evangelical Epicenters,” the question of “character” leads to McCain. In other communities with other priorities, it leads to Obama.
But with the economy weighing heavily on people’s minds, many people in our communities seem more interested in policy. From Eagle, Colo. (our growing and diversifying “Boom Town”), to Los Alamos to Baton Rouge, people cited Obama’s emphasis on specific policy plans as key for them.
And in the policy prescriptions from both sides, the larger themes tend to be Democratic, argued Robert Goidel, a Patchwork Nation blogger and professor at Louisiana State University in Baton Rouge.
“Even if McCain were to somehow win, the Democrats have won,” Professor Goidel wrote. “What I mean by this is the conversation is no longer ‘ending welfare as we know it’ or ‘government is the problem not the solution.’ The question is – what can government do to address a failing economy, a health care system that needs reform, and a world that is no longer at our command.”
Some of the strongest issues for the GOP in the past 20-plus years have involved the restraining of government. In an election where Wall Street is shaking and where people are talking about the possibility of another “Great Depression,” those arguments may have lost much of their power with voters.
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:28 am PDT
Re: Matt’s post above …
I agree completely. The last time we heard “straight talk” from a cadidate was crazy, old Ross Perot. And before that we have to look back to Ronald Reagan in 1980.
The system is designed, built, and tweaked periodically to ensure that the status quo is protected. We’ll always have two clowns from the major parties and be forced to choose the one we think of as “the lesser of two evils” as long as the Electoral College is in place. A constitutional amendment to get rid of that outdated and restrictive convention would open up the process to everyone, not just the boys in the back rooms cutting the deals.
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:30 am PDT
You can say you’re voting for McCain, but you can’t say he won that debate.
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:34 am PDT
So I am one of those undecided voters that the liberal media keeps talking about. I am a life long Republican but have remained undecided because you all know as well as I do, John McCain is no Republican!!! I have watched all the debates and have seen all the ads and have read each canidates positions and policy in depth on their websites and have just come to the conclusion that the Obama/Biden ticket actually stands more for my working class middle american values then the McCain/Palin ticket… Let this be a wake up call to my Republican Party, I’m voting for Obama/Biden this year!!!
October 16th, 2008 at 9:35 am PDT
Kathy, Rush may have talked about Obama “teaching the Acorn people to cheat on voting”, but that is just another of the many reckless falsehoods blathered out by Limbaugh - there is not a shred of truth to it. You ask why Obama “… only wants to help the minorities by giving them our money, but why didn’t he take is $100 Million he using on advertising and give it to them? ” He doesn’t do that because people like me donated that $100 million for his campaign and using it for something else WOULD violate the law.
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:40 am PDT
McCain & Palin don’t give a darn about the Country as they profess. All they tak about is negative remarks about Obama. Obama went to Columbia and Receied his law degree in Harvard. *** Laude Top of his class. John McCain graduated fron Naval school and was at bottomofhis class. Knowledge is strength .
I beieve that Sarah Palin has done great harm to McCains campaign. She acts like a Pit Bull attacking attacking attacking. He made a poor choice. And now he is living with it. We are voting for Obama
October 16th, 2008 at 9:42 am PDT
I did not mean to click the “inappropriate” button on Eric Maundry’s comment. I think it is VERY appropriate. I agree with “eman” who asks, “How do you make a comment appropriate????
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:44 am PDT
I believe it’s such a misnomer when people believe the economy is stimulated with a tax reduction.
Any cash infusion into an economy will stimulate the economy (whether debt or tax reduction). If however, you cut taxes by let’s say $100 and cut spending by an equal amount, the net stimulus to the economy will be 0.
In some cases, if you cut taxes to the wealthy by $100 and they send that $100 overseas for investment, the net benefit to the US economy is a -$100 assuming an equal amount in spending reduction.
If however, you cut the taxes of the middle class or the poor, they will likely spend it right away (because they need the cash) and it will likely be spent locally. Therefore, this will directly stimulate the US economy.
Obama’s approach is the correct one. He provides a tax credit for those companies who bring jobs to the US and not just a random tax credit to the wealthy who will likely invest it outside of the US economy.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:44 am PDT
When I watch these debates, I dont just look at what they’re going to do, I observe character as well. how they compose themselves and personal values. You can clearly tell by the last debate the level of patience and self control McCain lacked. I thought he was impulsive,aggressive and atrtacked McCains charecter every chance he could. If the problems and issues we have as a country we solved impulsively we would be in a worse off situation than we are now. Even after being repetedly attacked by McCain, Obama showed the patience, self control and eloquence that I think we need as a leader of this country
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:45 am PDT
I’m just happy that you are voting. It’s sad that you are buying into much of the rhetoric that the Hannitys and Limbaughs of the world are spewing down your throats like a mother bird to her chicks. Look into both sides. Look into whether or not you want Palin as your next President, as that is a VERY likely scenario. Supporting equality means backing the underdog… which were minorities much of the time in Obama’s case. How would you suggest he support equal and fair treatment by banks and anyone else and NOT be labeled a ‘racist’ by a campaign that has also called him a ‘terrorist’ and said to ‘Kill Him’? And just so you know, lawyers earn money by filing lawsuits. Thought I should make that clear to you before you bring up that point again. For the record, the chances are that McCain couldn’t get a job at the FBI, CIA or SS at this point. Just an FYI. And what security requirements are you talking about that he couldn’t pass?
As far as him voting ‘present’ instead of hopping on a party bandwagon and voting for something that he doesn’t support, Obama takes the time to read the bills and make sure they are worth a vote. It is a Senator’s duty to vote ‘Present’ if they do not wholly agree with the bill. That is for your benefit, and mine.
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October 16th, 2008 at 9:49 am PDT
For those of you who are voting for McCain because of his impeccable character, and Sarah Palin because of her … whatever it is people see in her (since I’m not a Hockey Mom married to Joe SixPack, I’m one of “them” and therefore, the Palin appeal is lost on me) - especially as it relates to race - please do a little research. I’ll get you started:
http://www.amazon.com/Gook-John-McCains-Racism-Matters/dp/0967943345/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221445863&sr=8-1
http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/09/sarah-palin-does-not-care-about-black-people/
October 16th, 2008 at 9:55 am PDT
I find it incredible that anyone could say they support Bush, and therefore McCain on character. We know that George Bush, Jr. repeatedly misled the nation on Iraq, dismissed our Constitution as “just a piece of paper,” and misrepresented his (now known to be) personal knowledge of detainee torture. We saw photos of a drunk, leering U.S. President at the Beijing Olympics, and heard his so-called joke that America would be fine as a dictatorship, “as long as [he was] the dictator.” If nothing else, McCain showed a willingness to play fast and loose with the truth. Sarah Palin knows more about energy than anyone else in the US? I doubt it. Alaska’s proximity to Russia gives her diplomatic credentials? In a pig’s eye. They say that honesty is the first casualty of war; I guess that means elections, too.
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October 16th, 2008 at 10:00 am PDT
To the one aptly named “McCarthy” above, as a Baptist minister from Texas seventeen years running, I must tell you that passage you quote from “Revelations” is actually nowhere in the Bible. As a man of God, I find it offensive when I see people using the good book for their own political reasons - especially when they take their own false words and try to substitute it for the word of God.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:01 am PDT
Jim A said at 8:56am
“Not because of anything political or economic, but when a “confident talking” man with muslim ties, who has socialism agendas at heart, can sweep in and so easily have everyone supporting him — we are in bad shape!”
Really, Jim! You object to the “muslim ties” more than anything political or economic?
October 16th, 2008 at 10:06 am PDT
I think this Comment censorship process is flawed - the Ds vote down any pro McCain posts, and the Rs do the same for any pro Obama posts - eventually you wind up with nothing! What good is that?
Why not just leave everything up? (and add a “thumbs-up” vote as well) That way we get to see the posts and the votes too. It is annoying as **** to see that a message has disappeared because x number of readers thought it was “inappropriate”! Dumb.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:07 am PDT
My wife and I turned off the volume and just looked at the candidates expression. It’s true–McCain looked agitated. He blinked multiple times, and his smile was more of a smirk. Obama at times looked angry, but later he smiled more, and looked more presidential. You saw character without hearing a word. Of course, we DVD’d the debate, and will watch it in its entirety later…
October 16th, 2008 at 10:09 am PDT
It is really sad to see how America is diviided since every Great Empire is History all fell from within! Still, people won’t try to see the forest for the trees. Too far to the left voters have made this about color of skin,that being said,what was wrong with Alan Keyes in 2004? My family would have voted for him in a second. But for those on welfare,(those able to) they might have actually been required to give something back.I’m not sold on McCain but I’m tired of the double standard of “you can’t connect Obama with Ayers,Acorn,Rev. Wright and how about Pres. Mugabe in Zambabwe” but it is fine to constantly compare McCain to Pres. Bush. Snakes are also reserved & slick,not easily provoked, whereas lions pounce,I’m sorry but we don’t need a snake in control of this country and we’ve had 8 years of arrogance, we need a lion in control. Palin is not going to be president!Please stop the moronic comments.True,people have a right to want to know more about her,she’d VP. We need four more years to really get to know Sen.Obama and then I think people will be more accepting. It is not about the color of his skin for the most. It’s that deep gutted feeling something smells in Denmark. Wake up America, a vote for Sen. Obama will be a dire mistake for us all. You’ll see too late I’m afraid.
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October 16th, 2008 at 10:12 am PDT
Redistribution of wealth platform by McCain is the same policy middle class had to endure for 8 years — do we want to continue the redistribution of wealth to CEOs, oil companies, the wealthy under McCain? Under Bush we had redistribution of wealth from the top down — it didn’t work then and it won’t work for McCain. We have the current economic crisis as proof that eight more years of McCain’s Top Down Redistribution of wealth policy doesn’t work. If that is the type of administration you want (which I’m sure those making over 250,000 do), than vote McCain.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:13 am PDT
I really wonder how much effort those saying Obama’s associations are a sign of his dark character, have put in in learning about McCain’s associations. G Gordon Liddy, a convicted felon, a plotter of murder, a Hitler admirer, a guy who once gave his radio audience instructions on how to best kill federal agents, is someone that McCain considers a friend and someone whose values and principles McCain openly praised as recently as late last year on his radio show.
McCain was also keynote speaker at a Acorn 2006 rally and told them that they are what makes America special. If Acorn has indeed engaged in an act that will unweave the fabric of our democracy Mr. Hysteria tried to claim last night, then it shows his complete lack of judgement in being associated with them in 2006.
The truth is, and I know because I used to be one of them, the majority of those evangelicals claiming they’re not voting for Obama because of character issues, are actually not voting for him because they are party loyalists first and foremost. Claiming “character issues” when McCain has a long history of association with some despicable characters himself is just an excuse to avoid having to admit “I am a partisan tool who would vote for a steaming pile of dung dressed up like Mr. Potato head if it was my party’s nominee.”
Now, I’m not saying that McCain’s associations here really say anything about his character(though I would like to hear an explanation of how he can praise someone like G. Gordon Liddy). My thinking is, you aren’t what others you know do with their lives, you are what YOU do with YOUR life. That’s the only valid measure of a person’s character. Life in a free and open society puts us all in the company of people we know little about. That’s the way it is. And those people, because they are humans and not perfection incarnate, probably have done things in their past that some would find offensive or objectionable.
I’m voting for Obama because republicans deserve to lose this election. Promised us limited government, and they expanded it. They promised us fiscal responsibility, and they gave us a drunken spending spree. Promised us no nation building, and they’ve given us one of the costliest nation building ventures we’ve ever undertaken. Promised us the free market and have given us bank and insurance company nationalization. This is a party whose only promise kept has been to cut taxes, but in the context of everything else they’ve done, that has not turned out to have been a good thing at all.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:13 am PDT
I can think of one way to increase the available financial resources in this country that has nothing to do with business, tax cuts or microsurgery on existing programs. I don’t believe anyone has mentioned it in any of the debates either. My solutions is to get our @$$*$ out of Iraq and stop financing a war that was started based on the paranoid delusions of the current administration. How many billions of taxpayer dollars are being spent every month? In his arrogance, John McCain is Bush’s twin because he believes that the US has the right to play bad cop all over the world regardless of the cost both financially and in young lives. Iraq will be like so many other countries infected with the domination of more powerful nations- when the last soldier leaves and the lights are turned off, they will revert to their previous state of functioning that is based on a culture and civilization thousands of years old. They will not be an American clone. It will have been for nothing because there is no permanent solution aside from carpet bombing the whole region and turning it into a parking lot. Not acceptable. Be real. McCain has sworn to keep us there “100 years” if we have to in order to win yet another unwinnable war. I say bring the troops home, stop throwing money into this pit and put it to good use instead to make America a place that ones dreams are not tranformed into nightmares. Mr. Obama is a bridge-builder, not a so-called “peace-seeker at any price.” Make no mistake- McCain’s pricetag includes your retirement, your investments, your safety in the world and the lives of your sons and daughters. He represents Jingoism at its finest.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:14 am PDT
Many here on this board aren’t playing with a full deck.
Jeremiah Wright? Ayers? Muslim faith?
A $700 billion bailout was just passed. $85 billion went to AIG. And AIG officials went on trips last week totally a half a million dollars.
This is taxpayer money abused in the worse way. All going to AIG executives who are Republican.
This is John McCain’s party. If you are joining this kind of support for McCain, why stay here and post on this forum? Be smart, and go get some of that bailout money from your peers.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:18 am PDT
[…] After debate, mixed reaction to McCain and a tilt toward Obama’s policies — the Patchwork Nation blog from the Christian Science Monitor […]
October 16th, 2008 at 10:19 am PDT
Martin Says:
))
As for Joe Plumber, he may want to start looking into what type of welfare Obama may have for him, his employer may not want to make more than 250,000 as to not get punished, oops I mean tax for being successful.
))
I do not know of a plumber who makes this money. Perhaps Joe is a business man who want to buy a plumbing company and runs other people in which case he may make more than 250K .
As a business he will be able to deduct all sorts of stuff so after all the deductions if he makes 250k he is probably making 350k which is ten times what most people earn.
The proposal that Obama is putting forward just winds the clock back to the same level of taxation as there was under Reagan, the god of the republican party.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:20 am PDT
I don’t like McCain either, but our country is at risk of turning SOCIALIST! All that should matter is who is going to better protect our liberties. Obama’s “tax break” for 95% of Americans is nothing more than income redistribution– especially considering that only 70% of Americans pay taxes in the first place. His idea of a “tax break” for those who don’t pay taxes, involves taking money from those who earned it and giving it to those who didn’t. This has never worked in the history of the world. Why should we expect it to work now? Please, for the good of our country, vote for capitalism.
Side note: I’m poor enough I would benefit personally from Obama’s “tax breaks,” but I don’t want what I didn’t earn, and I don’t want to cripple the economy with failed socialistic ideas. It was the socialistic idea that the government should help people get homes who couldn’t afford them that created this mess anyway.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:21 am PDT
Geeze…this blog censors more than the Bush White House. Let me see if this one will be censored. What does it matter? The entire country knows and sees that Barack Obama will be our next president. Soon, these silly blogs will be a thing of the past…and the nightmare of the last 8 years of Republican manipulation and mismanagement will be over. Barack is 3 for 3. All the way to the White House baby!
October 16th, 2008 at 10:21 am PDT
To Carl: AMEN! & right on!! God bless you for your service to this country and your great opinions! Obama looks and acts pesidential - I trust him to restore our position in the world and help heal our ecomony the right way. I have great confidence in his abilities - he IS our man for our times.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:23 am PDT
I am a young, Muslim man, and I find many comments regarding Muslims and their behaviors and their ideals, to be far-reaching and incorrect. At many points in history entire groups of people have been villainized and ostracized because of the acts of a few, who claim to share a similar belief as theirs. If people spent more time studying history and changing the world around them and less time finding justification for distrust and hate in religious text, we would not be wasting our time discussing what someone is named or whether they are (IN FACT) Christian or Muslim or Jewish or Buddhist…you get the point. In AMERICA, not Vatican City, there is a SEPARATION of Church and State. All of these questions regarding religious beliefs do not matter, as religion should have no place in politics, but rather the government govern, as per the will of the people. Government does what we ask them. We asked Emperor Bush to rule this country with Bible in hand - look at what we have to show for it. Right and wrong are obvious; no one needs the Qur’an or Bible to see that. Though I am a devout Muslim, I love the principles Christianity teaches. I have not seen anything in our “Christian” leaders that illustrates those principles. I would allow myself to be governed by whoever will do the “right” thing. I hope Obama proves himself to be more “devout” to fairness and justice than the Republicans that have paraded themselves before me as though they were birthed in Holy Water…PS why is anyone flagging any comments? Even if they are not politically correct, I live in America where even the most racist person can express himself…or did I somehow move to China? Obaden ‘08.
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October 16th, 2008 at 10:25 am PDT
To Carl: AMEN! & right on!! God bless you for your service to this country and your great opinions! Obama looks and acts pesidential - I trust him to restore our position in the world and help heal our ecomony the right way. I have great confidence in his abilities - he IS our man for our times.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:25 am PDT
To Carl: AMEN! & right on!! God bless you for your service to this country and your great opinions! Obama looks and acts pesidential - I trust him to restore our position in the world and help heal our ecomony the right way. I have great confidence in his abilities - he IS our man for our times.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:29 am PDT
This has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long time…
“”I believe it’s such a misnomer when people believe the economy is stimulated with a tax reduction.
Any cash infusion into an economy will stimulate the economy (whether debt or tax reduction). If however, you cut taxes by let’s say $100 and cut spending by an equal amount, the net stimulus to the economy will be 0.
In some cases, if you cut taxes to the wealthy by $100 and they send that $100 overseas for investment, the net benefit to the US economy is a -$100 assuming an equal amount in spending reduction.
If however, you cut the taxes of the middle class or the poor, they will likely spend it right away (because they need the cash) and it will likely be spent locally. Therefore, this will directly stimulate the US economy.
Obama’s approach is the correct one. He provides a tax credit for those companies who bring jobs to the US and not just a random tax credit to the wealthy who will likely invest it outside of the US economy.”"
So…just take money away from anyone who might save it, since it won’t do the economy any good to have it sitting in a bank???? And if you were the one smart enough to have money left over to save each month would you feel the government should take it away?
If redistribution of wealth worked, you would only have to do it once!
October 16th, 2008 at 10:32 am PDT
I think Mr. Ward has it right. In a crisis, we want some who is cool-headed, thoughtful and can carefully discuss the details while keeping all of our interests in mind. The more impassioned, ideological justification of keeping government off our back, doesn’t hack it anymore. As Jeff Frankel said, “Just as there are no atheists in a foxhole, there are no libertarians in a financial crisis.” In this crisis, it is apparent that government has forgotten the lessons of the Great Depression and the Savings and Loan fiasco of the late ‘80s and let unbridled greed abscond with our economy. We need someone with the intelligence and temperament to put it back together.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:33 am PDT
Don’t let youth, a strong voice, and a quick whit convince you to take the country down the path of socialism.
I don’t like McCain, I don’t like his character, I don’t like his policies, but at least he’s not a socialist with the idea that more government is the answer to all of our problems!
Yes, I am voting for the lesser of two evils.
Our country is at risk of losing the one thing it’s got going for it– that hard work pays off.
I wish someone else would have won the republican nomination, someone with some character, whit, good looks etc. Such a candidate would be able to help America see past the disparities in the package and see the issues. As it is, Obama is just a nice package and McCain is definitely not, but get over it! Look past the package.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:35 am PDT
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October 16th, 2008 at 10:44 am PDT
On the subject of economics…regardless of where you stand politically…Have you taken the time to look into the “fair tax” proposal? This is something that would work so well for all of America.
With fair tax, any purchase would be taxed, those who make more, spend more, pay more taxes, those who make less, spend less, pay less taxes…Including, visitors to the US, illegals, etc…
Sorry to simplify it so much, but it seems there are a lot of folks out there who have not heard of it, or don’t understand it.
Just think, it would also mean no more IRS, no tax deadlines, no file keeping for years on end.
I think the site is fairtax.org
October 16th, 2008 at 10:45 am PDT
Regarding the comments from WakeUp:
))
I’m poor enough I would benefit personally from Obama’s “tax breaks,” but I don’t want what I didn’t earn, and I don’t want to cripple the economy with failed socialistic ideas. It was the socialistic idea that the government should help people get homes who couldn’t afford them that created this mess anyway.
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Its commendable that you feel this way but it is important to realize that the economic issues we are having have not been caused by the much vaunted housing meltdown.
There are undoubtedly some people who got into this mess with the sub primes but there are a lot of people out there with normal mortgages who are affected. The real cause of the meltdown is that the average person cannot cope with a 100% increase in the cost of living mainly caused by rapidly increase fuel cost and food. The buffer zone many had has gone.
The cost of food increase is linked to the cost of transport which relies on diesel. Just think a few years ago gas was only $1.80 and now it has come down to $3.30 from a high of $5.00. In other words it rose more than 100% in eight years and my family now spends 600/month on gas and 700/month on food where it used to spend 300/400.
The reason for the dramatic increase has largely been due to a fall in the value of thge dollar caused by the fed overspending and large funds playing the futures market on oil. It cost about $26 to get a barrel of crude out of the ground and allowing for mark up the Saudi’s couldn’t see why oil should be above $60 when it was trading at $120.
The reason for the increase is the purchase and sale of oil on route to the US by these funds. Now de regulated by Bush/McCain these people made huge sums of money. Whats more even if we drill baby drill there is nothing stopping US companies selling it abroad.
On top of that many companies have moved good paying jobs abroad because they pay 1/5th over there what they woudld pay here.Until the manufacturing starts up here and the price of gasoline and diesel comes down we will continue to be in this mess.
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October 16th, 2008 at 10:47 am PDT
“We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which — or have the certification that some are required in some states.”
This comment speaks for itself. Why is the media ignoring McCains looney vision of the future of America?>
October 16th, 2008 at 10:50 am PDT
I felt sorry for McCain. He seemed so desperate to win and so uncomfortable even when he was attacking. He has made so many bad decisions about his campaign and he knows he is losing. The process seems to work after all because it is clear that Obama is the supoerior candidate and McCain has been shown to not to be presidential material after all is said and done.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:52 am PDT
I don’t get these accusations singling out Republicans as the ones trying to be holier than thou. Obama was pushing his Christian credentials wayyy harder than McCain before the truth about his racist pastor Wright became widely known. Before that, Obama had visited more churches and spent far more time talking about his Christian faith than McCain.
Then the truth came out as to exactly what kind of Christianity Obama had been so involved in for so many years at Trinity United in Chicago, years of lapping up the racial hatred from his pastor. It’s who he it.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:53 am PDT
Chris, why do you think that because you are black that gives you the authority to speak for all Black People? According to your logic, because you’re Black, you’re a Democrat, and because you’re not voting for Senator Obama, every Black person should pack up and follow you? How insane!!
As I read each of the candidate’s platform, I can help but wonder how many of teh bloggers did the same (instead of the soundbites) before offereing their opinions to America. The reality on the ground is that the everyday people are hurting. As an Independent thinker, my focus going into this election was to follow the issues, not smear as I hear it coming from the likes of Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.
Senator Obama, a cool and collected leader is to be praised for his raw ability and vision. I may not agree with him on all the issues, but I sure feel more comfortable with someone that has the wisdom that he does, than someone who finished almost at the bottom of their class, and another who had to attend five schools in six years to obtain a Bachelors degree in journalism.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:58 am PDT
It’s really so very sad that after both candiates have been researched so completely, that so many people are still believing the **** that has been spun to discredit the candidates. I suggest people start using reliable fact checking organizations instad of the next piece of SH@T that turns up on the internet.
It appears in this blog that some people on both sides of the debate can make a clear and intelligent arguement for each candidate. For those who are still repeating the rhetoric of “Obama, He SCARES me!” “Terror”, “Who IS he”, “Shady Dealings” are not doing due dilligence on their research (and I don’t mean listening to Rush or Bill O’Reilly - This **** comes hot off the set from FOX)). For those people, honestly YOU are what wrong with America - YOU are the reason we don’t have balanced elections, fair ads, and debates thoughtful of the issues that are important to us. You are so willing to drink the Kool Aid you allow all the negative bashing works and therefore it’s used by both parties. The result? - WE ALL LOSE. Both candidates are decent americans and we should respect them BOTH!
October 16th, 2008 at 10:59 am PDT
Really people, I did not know this was a beauty contest because if it is than the McCain Palin side beat the Obama Biden side hands down. Stop and listen to the comments, I too will benefit from the tax break from Obama but that is not what I want. This country will “CHANGE” but for the worst under the regime of Obama. Think of all the power this man will have by owning so much of the countries bussines’.
- Oh what the ****, let the wolf into the hen house he won’t hurt anyone anyways
While Obama is in office he should try to unite the North American countries, unite our monetary system and place chips in all our bodies to create a sense of security to all. This is understood by all my Christian brothers and sisters.
October 16th, 2008 at 10:59 am PDT
America needs a leader with a brilliant mind and a clear understanding of the Constitution. Senator Obama overcame many prejudices and obstacles to get where he is today. He’s been labeled as many things by the GOP, but that is where the real propaganda begins and ends. Senator Obama is our best hope, and maybe it’s time we all started listening to the generations that are going to be paying for “our President’s mistakes”. I respect Senator McCain’s service, but the GOP has put us in a horrific position and I don’t understand why anyone would want to continue down our current path.
We need hope. We need change. We need Obama.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:00 am PDT
Call me out of touch, but it took me a while to understand the candidates’ choice of words. For example, McCain commented on Obama’s “eloquence”. Normally I would consider eloquence to be beneficial, as it helps in being able to communicate one’s ideas so that they are understood. At least eloquence could be considered neutral, as speaking well makes one effective. In the past, I would have expected quality of speech to be generally associated with high office. But here the term seemed to carry negative connotations. I wondered how that could be. Then I realized the implication: that the more persuasive speaker may not actually be the best speaker. Persuasiveness was some external characteristic unrelated to the quality of ideas. Moreover, persuasiveness could be associated with being part of some elite class. It could be associated with being different, out of touch with the average, struggling citizen. That explained how “eloquence” could become a dirty word.
Rather than paint himself as someone with exceptional talent, I get the impression McCain would prefer to describe himself as an ordinary person who had been forged by extraordinary circumstances. Given his experience as a prisoner of war, he knew how it felt to suffer, and had the resilience to persevere. His past was marked by struggle and it made him a fighter. He would endure and press on for the best outcomes. Moreover, facing adversity put him in touch with the basic needs and concerns we all have. Perhaps that’s why he emphasizes “experience” and “character”. Not the experience of divorce, which unfortunately marks many marriages.
Talent and training are not as relevant here, because first of all, they put one in an ivory tower. Second, a president is surrounded by many wise advisers. It is impossible for any one person to consider the wide expanse of national policy. Instead of being involved in details, a president’s role is to set priorities and to delegate to experts of each sector. Perhaps that is how policies could become less important. They could be trumped by shared values. As average citizens, it could also be difficult for us to understand policy in detail. It would be safer to leave policy in the hands on someone who was trusted. Thinking about policy too much would put one at risk of being seduced by persuasion. In this light it’s reasonable for McCain to say, “when it comes down to it, ‘character’ is what matters most”. “Character” isn’t just important, it is most important.
This leaves theorists and idealists to muddle through the details of policies and to try to evaluate them. Hence McCain tends say he finds one issue or another important. Obama, on the other hand, tends to discuss details and how to evaluate policies. McCain appeals to one’s sense of trust, while Obama appeals to one’s sense of reason. Supposing you were someone who distrusted politicians in general, who would you support? Would you support someone who you might naturally feel inclined to trust? Or would you support someone who made the most sense to you?
This line of thought leads me to believe that (1) who one supports may be related to one’s preferred style of thinking and (2) supporters from either camp will talk past one another unless they address underlying differences.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:07 am PDT
William Ayers was part of the Weather Underground, who bombed government buildings and banks in protest of the conflict in Vietnam. Most were preceded by communiqués that provided evacuation warnings, along with statements of motivation for the attack.
The only deaths directly linked to Weathermen seem to be three of their own members, killed while assembling a bomb.
Charges against William Ayers were dropped in the 1970’s. Regardless, Ayers and his wife turned themselves in to authorities 1980. He then went on to work for education initiatives in Chicago, and was named “Person of the Year” for his work on the Chicago Annenberg Challenge grant proposal that in 1995 won $49.2 million over five years for public school reform.
Ayers’ prosecutor, William C. Ibershof, wrote the following in a recent letter to the New York Times:
“As the lead federal prosecutor of the Weathermen in the 1970s (I was then chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of Michigan and took over the Weathermen prosecution in 1972), I am amazed and outraged that Senator Barack Obama is being linked to William Ayers’s terrorist activities 40 years ago when Mr. Obama was, as he has noted, just a child.
Although I dearly wanted to obtain convictions against all the Weathermen, including Bill Ayers, I am very pleased to learn that he has become a responsible citizen.”
October 16th, 2008 at 11:10 am PDT
The major networks’ and newspapers’ attempts to milk the drama of this election drive me absolutely nuts. If people have any doubt about voting for Obama after watching this final debate, they SHOULD NOT. Obama, right in front of his opponent, proved nearly every negative talking point of McCain’s to be false - including the Bill Ayers nonsense, and his allegations that Obama’s tax/healthcare policies would hurt this apparently newly-important plumber. As a result, McCain’s responses seemed to be even more desperate and defensive than usual. And they were just that. Constantly responses, to a candidate who spoke in a far more fluid, graceful, and confident manner. And Obama did better than take the lead in the debate. He confirmed that his rhetoric is based on real policies. For the first time, I felt I could write down on paper what Obama plans to do in office, and though I suppose I could do the same for McCain, the senior politician’s plans seemed less viable every time. So much for experience. You know, I actually felt bad for the old guy last night. Sad to see anyone - even a Sarah Palin supporter- sense that they are losing control.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:13 am PDT
TO: Scott Sorenson YOUR COMMENTS: “Interesting that you think Obama won the debate. I will admit that he certainly has the uneducated vote locked up as many migrated from the Hillary campaign, but he spent of the debate on defense trying with very limited success to explain himself. He lost a lot of ground with the undecided voters last night.
Personally I hope Obama does win as I am very worried about the rioting already made referenced to months ago and that is still going on. I live in a very Obama friendly neighborhood and hear all the talk and throughout the years have learned to talk these threats seriously. It’s sad, but reality sucks sometimes”.
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I have many Democratic and Republican friends and I would NEVER call them “Uneducated”. Is that how you interact with your neighbors, or because the internet is relatively anonymous you are comfortable insulting people like that? P E O P L E W H E R E I S O U R R E S P E C T F O R O N E A N O T H E R ! Make your case, base it on the truth (the REAL truth not the devisive campaign rhetoric). Get above the fray and excercise your right and vote for the candidate that you think is best.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:22 am PDT
I watched the debate and was bothered that McCain addressed Joe the plumber so many times rather than talking to all of Americans. I feel as though I have no voice when it comes to McCain and Palin. It is about Joe six pack and now Joe the Plumber. I find it insulting what about Nancy the hairdresser or Larry the bag guy or Sarah the Mom… I could go on and on we are all people and feel that each have very similar concerns, Life (health) , Liberty (money and or work) and the pursuit of happiness (health of emotional self and society). I felt that McCain was in sincere when he addressed Joe the plumber it felt like an a ha I got you Obama. The rolling of the eyes and big cheesy smiles on both parts seemed unprofessional. McCain did way more. Could you image the way he will be when talking with heads of other countries that we have a difficult relationship with and someone rolls their eyes or smirks. It seems childish. We have had 8 years of someone who has managed to make Americans out to be stupid and all about cowboy justice. I hope the next 4 years are not filled with a leader who makes use look childish. Where is Dignity and Honor?
October 16th, 2008 at 11:25 am PDT
McCain’s portrayal of Joe the plumber did not achieve the effect he needed. It gave all the late night talk shows enough material for a couple of days and probably gave SNL a 15min skit. But when McCain sarcastically said “Joe, you are rich” I didn’t know what to make out of it. Most Joe’s I know are not in a position to buy a business, whether it is a small business or a large one. McCain overall is a poor communicator. He is not good at economics either. Only thing going for him is that he married rich. How does he fix anything, if he does not expect anybodyto pay any taxes? Privatization is good only if there are checks and balances in place to prevent greedy and corrupt politicians, lobbyists and CEOs. The average Joe is not Joe the plumber who is looking to buy a business. The average Joe is the one who does not know whether he will have a paycheck the next month. McCain thought he could use one of the people Obama spoke to as an example. But it sure did not get him anywhere.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:30 am PDT
“A $700 billion bailout was just passed. $85 billion went to AIG. And AIG officials went on trips last week totally a half a million dollars.
This is taxpayer money abused in the worse way. All going to AIG executives who are Republican.
This is John McCain’s party.”
I also opposed the bailout, but you appear ignorant of the fact that the bailou plan was supported by Obama, and Democrat voting support for the bailout exceeded that of the Republicans. Not to mention the fact that Obama received more contributions from FNMA than any other Senator besides Dem Senator Chris Dodd. If you’re going to point fingers, you’ll need to be honest enough to admit that the Dems are even “more dirty” than Republicans on this issue
October 16th, 2008 at 11:35 am PDT
But on Wednesday night, the one Patchwork Nation community that did comment about the past – especially Obama’s past – was Nixa, Mo., our socially conservative “Evangelical Epicenter.” There, Kristi Bohannon, owner of a local Sonic fast-food franchise who is a supporter of President Bush, said she and her family decided they were voting for McCain.
“After both debates, we all agreed that Obama has too many associations with individuals of questionable motives and character, and McCain’s life shows he has dedicated his life to serving the USA,” Ms. Bohannon wrote. “None of us agree or disagree with everything either of them said. The choice we make will come down to character of the individual.”
The hypocrisy of the McCain campaign bringing up Ayers is what I find the most annoying. Between McCain’s association with Keating 5 and the U.S. Council for World Freedom, Palin’s abuse of power as governor, and Rick Davis association with Fannie/Freddie there are plenty of “individuals with questionable motives and character” representing the GOP ticket. And for each of these individuals, they can’t use an “I was 8 years old at the time” defense. But for some reason all of these scandals have been swept under the rug in favor of Ayers. If discussing character is so much more important to some people than say economy, foreign policy, national security, the U.S. falling status as a superpower, etc. then they should be giving equal time to investigating each one of the above events as they have done for Ayers. Pull your head out of the sand “Evangelical Epicenters”.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:40 am PDT
I am clearly an Obama supporter; and I was saddened after the debate and surprised by my reaction. I watched the debate on public television and listened to the post debate commentary. I believe the reactions of the PBS crew were similar to mine, though that is presumptuous. They all seemed subdued and made some uncharacteristic and uninteresting comments. I think they felt (I certainly did) somewhat sorry for McCain. His aggressiveness had a desperate quality to it–throwing punches where ever he could, even when it didn’t fit the content of the debate. His glee felt brittle and I was embarrassed for him. He so wants to fight and win. That is his mantra, his strategy and what appears to be his governing philosophy. I find it sad that someone of his stature is operating in this manner.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:41 am PDT
I thought the most interesting statement made in the debate was Obama’s remark about building cars.
To quote.
“That’s why I’ve focused on putting resources into solar, wind, biodiesel, geothermal. These have been priorities of mine since I got to the Senate, and it is absolutely critical that we develop a high fuel efficient car that’s built not in Japan and not in South Korea, but built here in the United States of America.
We invented the auto industry and the fact that we have fallen so far behind is something that we have to work on.”
Is this a national car, a people’s car? Something like Hitler’s Volkswagen?
Will it be built in state-owned factories and financed by state-owned banks?
I think a little bit of the secret agenda of Obama-Reid-Pelosi sneaked out there.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:46 am PDT
“The average Joe is not Joe the plumber who is looking to buy a business. The average Joe is the one who does not know whether he will have a paycheck the next month”
Behold the pessimistic vision held by typical Obama supporters. “The sky is falling. Republicans are eevil!” What deep thinkers you are. Economies are cyclical and we are in a downturn. Most people will continue to have jobs and do well for their families. Those that lose their jobs, as in past downturns, need to look at other job and career alternatives. This economic crisis in particular was rooted in decades of government pressure on banks and Fannie Mae to make and buy loans for “underpriveleged” individuals who otherwise would not have qualified for a loan. When home prices were rising, no attention was paid to this practice, but when home prices dropped, it blew up in our faces.
Instead of pointing fingers at Bush over the current economic downturn, ask yourself this: Which party is most guilty of pressuring banks and government sponsored enterprises (GSE’s) like Fannie Mae to make loans to “underpriveleged” folks who were not creditworthy to get such a loan otherwise? An honest answer to that question says it all.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:47 am PDT
McCain was disingenuous in saying that he’d defended Obama whenever anyone from his (McCain’s) campaign made unsubstantiated charges against Obama. Yet his own VP nominee has been announcing all over the country that Obama “pals around with terrorists,” which is absurd.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:49 am PDT
I’m middle-class, hard-working, white, living in the Bible Belt. Something I have considered in the decision between the two candidates (discounting all the mud slinging), is the fact that Mr. McCain has never depended on a paycheck that wasn’t supplied by the US Government and has never had to buy his own health insurance coverage. He went to Annapolis straight from high school, had a career in the USN, then Congress. He’s had the best health care and a pay check he could rely on for his entire life. Over the last 25 years, I’ve only seen my paycheck getting stretched thinner and thinner and the various owners of companies I’ve worked for get obscenely richer and richer. The Director in my division of a large oil company recently bought an apartment building in the French Alps at a ski resort because he needed to invest his bonus in something other than the stock market!! He’s not even a company officer yet he’s reaping huge rewards. I think it’s time for the theory of “Trickle Up Economics” to get a chance. Let’s build this country back from the base up instead of letting the largess of the very rich trickle down to us common folk.
Obama addressed this in each debate. The McCain camp has been largely silent on it or thrown in the “Socialist - redistribution of wealth” grenade. What has been happening for the last quarter century? Redistribution of wealth from the vast middle class to a very small wealth class, in my observation. What’s fair for the goose….
God Bless and get out and vote, whomever your candidate!
October 16th, 2008 at 11:52 am PDT
Joe the Plumber is an American hero for shaking the sense into many previously mesmerized by Odinga’s Cousin.
I was at a rally where Obama’s teeshirt with Palin and the c word were printed on them. Obama pointed and nodded to them.
The loss of Hillary as Commander in Chief position, made me sit up and take notice when the FBI finally named the murder of two Texas Muslim girls by their Arab father, an honor killing. They were acting like and consorting with the Infidel. What did he bring them here for? Keep the nest in your own space…not mine.
Susan B. Anthony: “I never was surer of my position that no self-respecting woman should wish or work for the success of a party that ignores her political rights.”
October 16th, 2008 at 11:53 am PDT
I am a woman, a former naval officer, a Hillary supporter, a Christian, a Democrat, rapidly approaching senior citizen status. America is never going to be like it was in 1957, and I’m glad. Those times were far from perfect, even though the cars were awesome. I like living now. I think we are about to break free from the one major prejudice that has been limiting our humanity for centuries. When I look at Barack Obama, I see confidence, intelligence, a willingness to study a problem and come up with some likely answers. I think he will surround himself with the best and brightest that this country has to offer. I look at McCain and I see mediocrity in every choice he’s made, starting with the absurd Sarah Palin. I’m voting for Obama.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:55 am PDT
Sen. McCain is a racist. In the first debate he couldn’t bring himself to look at Sen. Obama; in the second debate he couldn’t bring himself to address Sen. Obama politely and refused to shake his hand at the end; and finally, his comment that Sen. Obama is “not an Arab, he’s a decent, family man” without any correction in the third debate proves that he is content with his racism.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:58 am PDT
Neo cons and racists seem to be operating under the premise that if you tell a lie enough times it becomes the truth. Sorry to inform you your lies are still lies no matter how many times you repeatr them. Anyone who has really taken the time to read knows Sen. Obama did not launch his political career in William Ayers living room, that is an outright lie. he launched his career at a Southside Chicago hotel, I was there and I know. Anyone who can read could also find out Bill Ayers did not say on 9/11/01 that he wished he had set off more bombs. he specificly said “I wish I had done more to help end the Vietnam War”. I also knmow those of you who claim to not support Sen. obama because “don’t know him”, “are scared of his associations”, etc. are lying to yourselves. Just admit that your racism will not allow you to support any non white person for a leadership position.
October 16th, 2008 at 11:59 am PDT
I will vote for Obama as I believe he is the best choice..long before Palin came into the picture. I would say however, no matter who gets in, we Americans have four years of tough rowing ahead of us. I’m somewhat supprised that both of them have not pulled out sayiing “I want nothing to do with this mess”. Unfortunately Obama will be blamed by some ignorant fools. Obviously this all started at LEAST 8 years ago and no one person is going to bring us out quickly (unless we have devine intervention) which is NOT the way HE works, (I believe). I pray that Obama collects the best minds from all walks of life, and listens to them, to help America become what it once was. I have much more to say but enough for now.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:08 pm PDT
In order to counter the truth of Obama’s associations, his supporter like Craig are making bald faced lies, denying that Obama launched his career at William Ayer’s house, an unrepentent terrorist who in 2001 said that he wished he had done even more damage. Don’t believe him, and for that matter, don’t believe me. Google Obama+William Ayers home+1995 and decide for yourself who is telling the truth and who is spreading lies.
“In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.”
October 16th, 2008 at 12:09 pm PDT
Jimmy Carter was the worst president in the history of the United States (with possibly the exception of BUsh JR.) and he ran on the same idea that Obama is of I am not from politics or the good ole’ boys club, look where it got Jimmy, out in 4 years because he did nothing but sign bills that continue to hurt the USA even today (Look at the energy bill he signed banning the reprossessing of nuclear waste! Its cheap, its safe, and by well its renewable!)
October 16th, 2008 at 12:10 pm PDT
In order to counter the truth of Obama’s associations, his supporter like Craig are making bald faced lies, denying that Obama launched his career at William Ayer’s house, an unrepentent terrorist who in 2001 said that he wished he had done even more damage. Don’t believe him, and for that matter, don’t believe me. Google Obama+William Ayers home+1995 and decide for yourself who is telling the truth and who is spreading lies.
“In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.”
October 16th, 2008 at 12:12 pm PDT
In order to counter the truth of Obama’s associations, his supporter like Craig are making bald faced lies, denying that Obama launched his career at William Ayer’s house, an unrepentent terrorist who in 2001 said that he wished he had done even more damage. Don’t believe him, and for that matter, don’t believe me. Google Obama+William Ayers home+1995 and decide for yourself who is telling the truth and who is spreading lies.
“In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district’s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn.”
October 16th, 2008 at 12:15 pm PDT
Hey Joe, ever heard of the Keating Five?!
McCain got off easy, the investigative committee said he showed poor judgment, at best. John McCain is also a recreational gambler. He divorced his first wife for a younger and richer woman. Those are all facts. Now perhaps he really loves his second wife and needed to divorce his first wife, I don’t judge him either way. And perhaps his gambling is really a kind hearted way of interacting with the Native American community who lends him a lot of political support. Perhaps, Keating is a truly brilliant con man who could manipulate any person in the world.
But, the doubts to McCain’s character are just as strong as Obama’s,
as are those acts which support the notion of their strong character. (i.e. POW in Vietnam, Community Organizer after Harvard Law)
Now, for me personally, I value the record of being an absolute elite student at Harvard Law and then going to be a community organizer when many more lucrative jobs were at his hand. Personally, I do not value being a flashy airforce pilot who was mediocre at best in school, despite the heroics he may have displayed as a POW.
Anyways, McCain said it himself. Obama is a good, decent, christian man, of whom you do not need to be afraid to be president.
I think McCain would be a suitable president and our country would probably do alright with him at the helm.
Obama will be an excellent president and America will flourish greatly under his wise leadership.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:15 pm PDT
When Obama gets elected to the dismay of many he will do many things that will hurt Americans, primarily raising corporate taxes that will be passed on to the consumers (companies don’t pay taxes, there consumers do!) which will turn them away to other countries, possibly Europe, which has tax rates much less than the US on Corporations ie. Ireland at 11% American companies will pull out, jobs will be lost and Obama will try and blame the last 8 years for this when he is taxing an already unstable marketplace! “The best way to cause Depression is by raising taxes” Said by a great Democrat one that would laugh at the past 3 decades of Dems, Franklin D. Roosevelt!
October 16th, 2008 at 12:16 pm PDT
Hey Joe, ever heard of the Keating Five?!
McCain got off easy in that scandal, the investigative committee said he showed poor judgment, at best. John McCain is also a recreational gambler. He divorced his first wife for a younger and richer woman. Those are all facts. Now perhaps he really loves his second wife and needed to divorce his first wife, I don’t judge him either way. And perhaps his gambling is really a kind hearted way of interacting with the Native American community who lends him a lot of political support. Perhaps, Keating is a truly brilliant con man who could manipulate any person in the world.
But, the doubts to McCain’s character are just as strong as Obama’s,
as are those acts which support the notion of their strong character. (i.e. POW in Vietnam, Community Organizer after Harvard Law)
Now, for me personally, I value the record of being an absolute elite student at Harvard Law and then going to be a community organizer when many more lucrative jobs were at his hand. Personally, I do not value being a flashy airforce pilot who was mediocre at best in school, despite the heroics he may have displayed as a POW.
Anyways, McCain said it himself. Obama is a good, decent, christian man, of whom you do not need to be afraid to be president.
I think McCain would be a suitable president and our country would probably do alright with him at the helm.
Obama will be an excellent president and America will flourish greatly under his wise leadership.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:24 pm PDT
Rick Groves:
I understand where you are coming from but at the moment the pendulum has swung to far in favor of those who have wealth, power and influence. You mention the “freedom to fail”, unfortunately those rules do not apply to those who caused the Wall Street mess.
The people most responsible for the current mess are walking away with hundreds of millions of dollars. It is a form of class warfare to try to place all of the blame on those who took out mortgages they could not handle. If that was the only problem then economic fallout would have been fairly limited. What happened is that those would could afford the lobbyists where able to set up a system where free market principles did not apply. What you had was cabal of players making back room deals on complex derivatives built up on these mortgages and debt with very little input from the market. On top of that you had companies like AIG selling insurance on these complex derivatives.
(The SubPrime Primer)
http://docs.google.com/TeamPresent?docid=ddp4zq7n_0cdjsr4fn&skipauth=true
(A good start to understanding the SubPrime issues but I have to give a Language Warning also).
The problem with the Republican approach to regulation is that it did not pay enough attention to the fundamentals of human nature. If these complex derivatives were bought and sold on a market based approach it would have allowed a brake to be put on the “real” value or price of these SubPrime mortgages. Instead what happened is that a very small set of individuals driven by greed were allowed to set the value. The higher the value on these complex derivatives the more money they made.
I like Senator McCain, I liked him in last nights debate but the problem is that he just does not understand the economic issues at play here. I daresay that he trusts his ‘friends’ a bit too much. The same mistakes he made in the Keating scandal are the same mistakes he has made in the current economic problems. Look at Senator McCain’s economic advisers.
Phil “Nation of Whiners” Gramm: Ushered through the “Commodities and Trading Modernization act” of 2000 (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/20/business/20insider.html?fta=y, http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/business/20commodity.html)
Carly Fiorina: Fired from HP yet got a 21 Million dollar severance package in violation of HP’s own rules on severance caps.
Kevin Hassett: Author of “Dow 36000: The New Strategy for Profiting from the Coming Rise in the Stock Market”.
If you look at these advisers then you begin to understand why Senator McCain was still saying “The fundamentals of our economy are strong” just before the Dow crashed from 11421 to a low of 8451 in the space of 25 days.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pm PDT
The Republican assumption has always been that if you give tax breaks to corporations and people with money, they will further business and employ people. However, judging by the Monte Carlo Yaght exposition, they could also be using it to buy yaghts with two swimming pools, saunas, etc., etc. If one give those same tax breaks to the middle class, they will probably be more able to buy that flat screen TV, new IPODs, etc. When there is a demand for products, business–often small businesses will spring up to supply that demand. It’s the basics of demand side rather than supply side economics. Which one makes more sense to you?
October 16th, 2008 at 12:26 pm PDT
Wow,it’s always quite a marvel to read what people will write anonymously on the internet.
Personally, I thought the debate was a draw if looking at it through an objective lense. Although I am an Obama supporter I live in a major swing state and do understand the population here in MO that McCain appeals to. MO is about a 50/50 split in respect to Democrats and Republicans and both will cross party lines during voting. Oh and for those of you who will chime in and question whether I’m actually a registered Democrat and an Obama supporter, fire away. Silly and a complete inability to be objective.
Nixa, MO???? Wow, you couldn’t have picked a better place to represent the evanglicals, in fact all around Springfield is a bible-thumping area.
If you ever want to get a good sampling of the politics in MO I would suggest coming here to St. Louis, we have a great mix of Democrats, Republicans and Independents. We are quite accustomed to have blended political families and friends.
As a Missouri Democrat I’m calling the debate a tie. Peace
October 16th, 2008 at 12:30 pm PDT
I have never heard such utterly ridiculous comments in a very long time. Obama’s character over McCains - are you serious? Because he divorced his wife? Have you checked the statistics on marriages that fail and specifically those that fail after one returns from a war, to say it is common is an understatement. Need I remind those of you “republican haters” that it was a democratic President who handed America one of the most embarrassing moment in our history with his MANY indescritions and perverted actions, and yet you were all there supporting his wife this year who didn’t have the strength of character and self-respect to stand up for herself in the face of that betrayal and world-wide public humiliation. Yet you have nothing but lothing comments about a woman who is strong enough to actually “walk the walk” and not just “talk the talk” when she learns her child will be born with Down Syndrum. A woman with lesser character would have done the opposite.
Now, about Obama as President. There are two sides to everything and since you all obviously have down to site and verse one side, allow me to enlighten you with the other side on what I see as the biggest problem with Obama. Obama WILL raise taxes on what some people would classify as “rich”. However, lets not forget that this includes small business owners who many of you work for. He says that the majority of small businesses do not fall into his income bracket for raising taxes, which is true. What he doesn’t say is that nearly all of those businesses also don’t employ anyone. This cause will have an effect and it will be a lay offs. Perhaps that’s why his tax plan also includes giving an income tax rebate to people who don’t work to earn any income. So those people who stand on the street corner begging or breaking into your car to steal the money that you went to work to earn will also get check as a rebate of the taxes you paid on that money. Hard working talented people whose efforts are rewarded are penalized in his plan while those that do the bare minimum just to get by are rewarded.
Is there corruption and greed in the weathliest of the wealthy - absolutely. But guess what - those people don’t pay taxes anyway b/c they have a “clever” accountant who knows where the loopholes are and those people have off-shore “secrete” accounts hidden away somewhere. I’ll all for going after those people because we all should be paying our fair share. But despite what Obama says, there is nothing fair about his tax plan.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:35 pm PDT
I know that everyone is concerned (and rightfully so) about the health care and tax pollicies of both candidates. People want to know that the sen. that gets the presidential nod will treat the country as they would. But I am begging everyone who reads my reply to greatly consider that Obama is part of a communist reform of our country. His political carreer was launched from the home of William Ayers, a terrorist and radical communist. In 1969 and 1970 when the rules were being written on how to turn the USA communist Ayers was not only there but he signed the papers!!! There plan was to take us over from the inside out and one of the final steps was to take over pollitical office. It is true that Obama was only 8 years old then but is it so far fetched to imagine that they would chose a young fresh face to carry out their plan. Is it so hard to imagine that Obama would have dropped off all public connection with Ayers 3 years ago because they knew it would be bad for the campaign. Please ….if I reach one person from this then my time has been well spent. Do not vote for Obama. McCain is a lunatic it is true but with the congress majority being left nothing will get done with his administration anyway. If you have any interest in retaining a democratic nation vote against Obama!
October 16th, 2008 at 12:43 pm PDT
Your strategy seems to be to discredit a man based on interactions with people that you go on to discredit. This is character assassination in place of debating the issues. This line of reasoning is flawed because the “associations,” as you suggestively describe them, are minimal: just because you sit on a board with someone, or have been to someone’s house or church does not make you responsible for all their deeds and statements.
The other problem with your note is its purposeful use of inflammatory labels designed to instill fear and hate rather than add to the debate — examples: terrorist, vermin, black racist, klan rallies, certifiably insane. Your repeated inflammatory references to race, in particular, suggests that either you are racist yourself or, more likely, that you are trying to make Obama’s race an issue that a reader would fear.
These strategies are beneath contempt.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:52 pm PDT
I wouldn’t say that McCain “came unglued” as one of the Patchwork Nation folks put it — but I thought he looked decidedly goofy when he spent fully thirty seconds rapidly blinking (in apparent disbelief) at several contentions by Obama. I was reminded, despite my attempts to stay serious-minded and focused on the *content* rather than style, of nothing so much as a barn owl suddenly exposed to daylight.
(I watched on CSPAN because I hate the distractions of various tickers and response meters on outlets like the once-excellent CNN. Also, I prefer my news uncolored by talking head blabberatti.)
With regard to the now famous Joe the Plumber:
I became increasingly convinced that the good Joe was likely unclear on the distinction between gross income and net income, and — sure enough — this morning I found that he had admitted that he, indeed, makes (in his own words) “far less” than the quarter million dollar threshold at which taxes on small businesses would begin to increase.
My fellow Americans… sigh.
October 16th, 2008 at 12:55 pm PDT
Mook Says:
- “Those that lose their jobs, as in past downturns, need to look at other job and career alternatives.”
Think before you speak please. This statement is a very simplistic view by someone that has been spoon-fed the conservative koolaide for too many years. It’s poor people’s fault they are so poor isn’t it? Look my friend, if I am a machinist and my experience is in making parts for the auto industry, if I get laid off what other options do I have? With my co-workers being laid off as well do you think I am going to easily find a job where I can use transferable skills with all of the competition. And do you think it’s going to be easy for me to just go out and acquire new skills, especially if I can’t pay for training because I’ve been laid off? Your view also completely ignores white collar workers that have studied a particular trade in college and made a career out of it. I suppose it’s really easy for them to just go back to college and study something else for 4 years isn’t it and then get back into the job world at the same level they were at? Your view also completely ignores the fact that there are plenty of people out there that may not have the luxury to uproot themselves and their families and move from one location to another for new jobs.
- “Behold the pessimistic vision held by typical Obama supporters. “The sky is falling. Republicans are eevil!” What deep thinkers you are.”
- “Instead of pointing fingers at Bush over the current economic downturn, ask yourself this: Which party is most guilty of pressuring banks and government sponsored enterprises (GSE’s) like Fannie Mae to make loans to “underpriveleged” folks”
Your own lack of deep thinking and pointing of fingers has led you to look like a hypocrite. You spout off typical republican rhetoric like a parrot. “Squawk, democrats and poor people are to blame for all of the current economic problems”. Shall we discuss the deregulation happy republicans that removed oversight on the banking industry and wall street or are we going to ignore them? The fact of the matter is that both parties are at fault, there is no single point of failure. There are also issues that are not political. For example: commission happy mortgage brokers looking to make a sale to anyone they can, or people not choosing to live within their means (foreclosures are happening at all levels of the housing market by the way, not just to low income families). Take your Rush Limbaugh goggles off and open your eyes a bit. If you are such a “deep thinker” then it’s time to get out of the kiddy pool and start swimming in the real world.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:01 pm PDT
Hey “amazed”, I am going to run down some things, and you can feel free to respond to them, or ignore them. Either way, they are issues that you should consider.
1) Todd Palin was a member of a successionist party until recently… a party which sought to remove one of the beautiful white stars from Our Stars and Bars. A party that Sarah gave a speech for just over a year ago. A party who’s leader, and friend of Todd’s said, “I will NOT be buried under America’s God-damned flag.”
2) Keating 5
3) If you cannot even stay faithful to your vows before God as a husband, why would you think it possible as President?
4) Palin cannot even run her own household effectively enough to keep her 17 year old from getting knocked up.
5) Palin’s preacher ‘layed hands’ on her to demand that God make her Alaska’s Governor. He also chased a woman out of town in Africa after accusing her of being, and I quote, ‘a witch’. He is actually pretty proud of this fact. As she is proud of having an affiliation with him.
6) McCain stated, “I have always hated ****. I will hate them for the rest of my life.” A racist? Never apologized for it. Never gave a solid reason for it.
7) McCain would have every former military person eligible to teach in our country, without requiring any certifications. He would also have us keep on track with ‘No Child Left Behind’, which is effectively dumbing down today’s youth to the lowest common denominator.
Tax health care??? Or tax those making more than enough to survive an additional 3%?
9) As far as McCain being a hero… he cracked in Hanoi. He rolled on our nation. They caught it on film. Not very “Maverick”-y. He cracked when his fellow captives did not. And HE is the hero? Give me a break.
10) Is McCain a Maverick or a Puppet? Do you REALLY think McCain chose Palin? Do you really think he didn’t mean that he only wanted to be President for his own gain, not for the country’s? Are you really that blind?
Ignorance is bliss. I know this first-hand, as I used to regurgitate the rhetoric from all of the GOP’s mouth-pieces. But ignorance is not right. McCain took every opportunity to step away from the debate questions dealing with the issues, and to try and attack Obama. Is that really the basis of his campaign? “I’m not as bad as THAT guy, so vote for me!” Obama laid out his plans, clearly for the layman. McCain had a hard time getting through an answer by addressing the question. Vote. For whomever, just vote. It is our duty, whether we agree or not. But educate yourself on the people you are voting for as much as you try to dig up or perpetuate the dirt on the ‘opposing team’. Those who are quickest to point the finger are usually the most guilty, and McCain supporters and even McCain and Palin, themselves, have been doing a lot of finger-pointing lately. Ask yourself why.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:16 pm PDT
“Your strategy seems to be to discredit a man based on interactions with people that you go on to discredit. This is character assassination in place of debating the issues. This line of reasoning is flawed because the “associations,” as you suggestively describe them, are minimal”.
Obama dedicated one of his books to his racist pastor Jeremiah Wright. He spoke of Wright as one of his primary influences in his life. It’s incredibly dishonest of you to try and minimize that relationship as “minimal”.
With William Ayers, they did more than just, as you claim ’sit on a board’ together, just as Obama dishonestly minimized their relationship as “just some guy in the neighborhood”. Obama launched his career in Ayer’s living room. That is not a casual relationship. Ayers was head of the Annenburg foundation which hired Obama (at Ayer’s behest?). I don’t see how any honorable person could sit in the same room with an unrepentent terrorist like Ayers without taking a swing at him, much less embracing his support as Obama has done. I urge people to google this relationship for themselves in order to see what a complete lie it is to characterize the relationship between Ayers and Obama as ‘just some guy in my neighborhood’.
As if long associations with straight up racists and unrepentant terrorists were not enough, convicted felon Tony Rezko nearly single handedly funded Obama’s IL state senate campaign, while making a sweetheart payout deal to Obama on the purchase of Obama’s home. Google Rezko+Obama+real estate to read the details of yet another odious partner of Barack Obama’s. Obama is a huckster, a phony, pretending and lying about his current and past associations in order to make himself appear more mainstream. Those with an independent mind shoudl do your homework before walking into the voting booth
October 16th, 2008 at 1:28 pm PDT
“Those that lose their jobs, as in past downturns, need to look at other job and career alternatives.”
Think before you speak please. This statement is a very simplistic view by someone that has been spoon-fed the conservative koolaide for too many years. It’s poor people’s fault they are so poor isn’t it?”
Just to be clear, you are taking a perfectly reasonable statement and dishonestly twisting it into “it’s poor people’s fault”. You can’t address arguments on their own merits, so you make up statements that were never said or even implied. It’s who are.
October 16th, 2008 at 1:36 pm PDT
“Jimmy Carter was the worst president in the history of the United States (with possibly the exception of BUsh JR.) and he ran on the same idea that Obama is of I am not from politics or the good ole’ boys club, look where it got Jimmy”
Are you deciding to exclude Nixon from your worst presidents list for any reason? You are also confusing Obama with Palin buddy. One of the skills that the McCain campaign touts (in lieu of her lack of experience) is her “maverick” ability to not be part of the old boys club in Washington. So in a way Carter was also a maverick then, but “look where it got Jimmy”.
“he did nothing but sign bills that continue to hurt the USA even today”
Hey, Jimmy Carter granted us the ability to home brew. He wasn’t all bad. But I’ll let you get back to looking to the past and blaming the dems for everything. That seems to be what republicans do best, rather than looking to the future and coming up with their own solutions….And no, “a round of tax cuts for me and my friends” isn’t the solution to all problems unfortunately.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:18 pm PDT
It seems odd and insulting that either side is casting aspertions on the candidate’s character. Both are men who have spend their time in public service where you are bound to end up in rooms and on committees with others who don’t share your view. Also, it may take awhile to see a problem, as in when McCain had to pull away from his close ties to Keating and reverse his previous supportive actions. In the same way, Obama should have paid attention to Myer’s history before visiting his home and letting him host a fundraiser. But neither of the candidates is walking around inviting these men to help them determine policy and bringing them up just wasted a lot of time that could have spent discussing creative ways to salvage the economy. If the two both had really defended their plans, and delved into the whatifs, the American people might not be selling off their stock today.
October 16th, 2008 at 2:31 pm PDT
“Both are men who have spend their time in public service where you are bound to end up in rooms and on committees with others who don’t share your view.”
You are trying to assert an equivalence where there is none. Before the controversy, Obama cited Rev. Jeremiah Wright as one of his primary influencers. Wright meant so much to Obama that Obama dedicated one of his books to Wright, naming it after one of Wright’s sermons. That was before the truth of Wright’s hateful racism came to light and his “God Damn America” sermons were on video for all to see. This is not a case of some minor association, it was a close relationship between the two with deep roots.
Terrorist William Ayers hosted Obama’s political launch in his house and then got Obama a job. That’s not a “casual” one-time relationship either
Convicted felon Tony Rezko nearly single handedly funded Obama’s state senate campaign and gave Obama a sweetheart real estate deals.
All of these relationships go far deeper than simply brushing shoulders on the way to the men’s room. These are/were relationships and partnerships in which Obama chose to be involved. It speaks to character and judgement. Why the obfuscation and lies about these relationships? Why does Obama, who was an Acorn lawyer and who funneled money to Acorn while he worked with Ayers.. why does Obama try and minimize his Acorn activism now that Acorn is caught in voter fraud with funding from the Obama campaign?
October 16th, 2008 at 2:49 pm PDT
The difference between the tax and spend Democrats and the high spending Repugnicans is that the Repugnicans spend without paying for it. That is taxation by dumping the bill on the next public official. President Cheney, Vice President Bush, and the Repugnican Congress ran up the highest deficit in history. The Democrats were elected, in part as a rejection of the Cheney-Bush mismanagement. The Democratic controlled Congress inherited this disaster, and does not have enough votes to overturn the Presidential Veto. How come Chaney-Bush are no longer speak in promotion of the dissolution of Social Security, and have all of the working people in this country gamble their retirement on Wall Street, like they used to do?
October 16th, 2008 at 3:50 pm PDT
Both candidates are honorable and intelligent men who do their best to serve their country. I am sorry to see them and their supporters pointing fingers at each other and acting in a divisive manner. While there are major differences between the candidates and parties, there are just as many points of agreement. Compare the positions described on each candidate’s web site on health care or immigration - there are just as many points of agreement as differences. Do your homework, select the candidate and platform you believe in the most, and VOTE. But please, stop trying to undermine the other side.
October 16th, 2008 at 8:39 pm PDT
I was ready to listen to Mook’s comments with an open mind, except there was no discussion whatsoever about McCain’s questionable associations. He sounds like he got the McCain campaign talking points exactly as they wanted him to recite them.
October 16th, 2008 at 9:32 pm PDT
“How come Chaney-Bush are no longer speak in promotion of the dissolution of Social Security, and have all of the working people in this country gamble their retirement on Wall Street, like they used to do?”
What is it about you Democrat partisans that makes you so dishonest? Contrary to your deceitful characterization, no one suggested the “dissolution” of Social security. What Bush proposed, was the crazy idea that folks should be able to invest a portion of their SS retirement in something else which pays higher interest, since the US govt pays just 1% on our money. Even if that freedom extended only to CD’s, the average retiree would be far, far better off than under our current system. Whacky idea to you socialists, huh?
October 16th, 2008 at 9:36 pm PDT
Both candidates are disaster on immigration, both supporting amnesty against the wishes of the vast majority of Americans. One of the most fundamental rights of any country in the world is enforcement of borders and citizenship. This fundamental right has been diluted and violated by both Republicans and Democrats. We need to crackdown on employers of illegal aliens with a vengeance, imposing financially crippling fines and jailtime on offenders. Neither candidate is willing to move forward with the wishes of the American people on this issue
October 17th, 2008 at 6:55 am PDT
In watching and reading about the issues in the Presidential campaign from abroad I see a lot of things that most Americans miss.
All the reports quoting the American press published in Europe is overwhelming supportive of Obama and negative of McCain. Of course we also have the foreign press (European) weighing in supportive of Obama and negative on McCain.
Looking at the tax issues: A 95% reduction of taxes for the middle class is nothing more than a wealth re-distribution as it raises the taxes on the peopl who currently are paying 69% of the national taxes, so it belies the question - Do you keep taxing until the have no more to take, or, do you slowing bleed them to death and they file bankruptcy?
Here in Europe we have what is commonly known as VAT (Value Added Tax) to every invoice, labor bill, internet items purchased, for government revenue and this is set by each country at a rate of 15% to 21% of the invoice total. On top of this each government has a 84% tax ratio on each gallon of gasoline, plus a 15% tax for “Green” or the environment. This is the reason that most Europeans have higher savings than Americans, because they are actually protesting against this high taxation. It is also the reason that so many European flooded America to purchase products and bring them back from their vacations. I am speaking of plane loads of people who flew strictly to purchase and return home. The governments got wind of it and increased Custom Agent searches at the airports and harbors, taxed the people and fined them for evening trying to avoid the high taxation.
Taxes are not imposed on products leaving the country and they actually provide financial for the companies in other countries to purchase the products. Talk about an unfair playing system stacked against the US.
Under the government sponsored and supported national health care system it may take up to one year to see a doctor or have an operation because the government owns the hospitals and shut down older hospitals without building new hospitals. The doctors and nurses earn less than their American counterpart and go on strike to get the point across shutting down the hospitals and health clinics in the process. Is this the Obama administration plan for a national health care system? Bye the way, people with private health care plans instead of government health care plans are being seen by the doctors immediately without delay. Is this the style of government America faces under the wealth re-distribution plan of an Obama administration? Yet in some of these countries there are vast number of people who are not covered by the government health care system. The TV talk shows bemoan these facts all the time and yet there are still millions with no coverage.
Just some items to think about before casting your important vote as to the future of America.
October 17th, 2008 at 7:26 am PDT
[…] we noted in Thursday’s post, most of the people in our Patchwork Nation communities who thought Obama won Wednesday’s debate […]
October 19th, 2008 at 6:20 pm PDT
McCain was partly responsible for the past destruction of the Savings and Loan industry, thru taking massive bribes from a corrupt banker (Keating) to prevent federal regulators from doing their job. Do you want this guy in charge of the economy. He once ordered federal biologists to falsify information about an endangered species in Arizona to allow a telescope project to go thru; threatened them with firing. This person in charge of the enviroment? He dropped bombs on babies and got caught; this makes him a hero? Now we’re in two vietnams with no hope of winning our insane wars of conquest; put him in charge of the military? Fortunately, in the last debate he acted like a drunken ******* looking for a bar fight; time to concede the election and pick up the pieces of 8 years of self destruction.